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Q
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Should
we Delete Variants from our data base?
Many
collectors feel that most ( not all ) but most of the so-called
variants really should not be considered a new or unique plate.
We have hundreds of reported variants listed by John Bilane and
others on our site at New
Discoveries Yet there are also hundreds that lack information
and perhaps more importantly photos to show this "variant"
to the original plates.
I
recall one discussion with John Bilane back in the 1970's, when
he told me that "variants will be the Cup Plate Dealers salvation".
He claimed that he could pick up any 10 similar plates and always
find a "variant"
When
you consider the crude way of manufacturing these inexpensive
gems back in the mid 1800's, is it any wonder that they are not
all carbon copies? So put your two cents in...Should we delete
all variants that cannot be proved with a photo or other source?
Yes or No email your vote
and place your thoughts
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A
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I
think any variants in diameter that are < 1/8" from that
described in AGCP should be removed. Diameters >= 1/8" should
remain. Differences in # of scallops (or scallop pattern) from that
described in AGCP should remain.
Newly discovered pontil variants should also remain. New colors
should remain as well.
If possible, we should get photographic evidence, however we should
at least leave a reference for those variants which cannot be substantiated
photographically.
Matt
Hardesty, New Hampshire |
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Q
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I
am seeking information regarding cup plate LR 91. In the book
AGCP, it is listed as unique and the only one known being in the
collection of a Mr. Douglas Carapata. In 1989 I came into possession
of a plate that I believe to be an LR 91. I had some correspondence
at the time with John Bilane about it and he mentioned that another
one had turned up, i.e. "...later Wood sold one to Marble".
My question is, where do these two LR 91s reside today? I would
like to be able to make a comparison sufficient to determine diffinatively
if my plate is LR 91. Photos are below, just click to enlarge
Jim
Scott
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Responding
to Jim Scotts question about LR 91. I got the specimen
from D. Carapata's collection at the Butterfield's auction in
2000.
Attached are a front and back picture and a closer picture of
each. The top center has no concentric rings, the rings show clearly
on the back center. The table rest is also plain, not rope.Just
as described in AGCP.
Click
on photos for larger image
Bill
Pearson , San Jose, CA
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BILANE MENTIONED AN OPAL OPAQUE. BOTH LISTED AS UNIQUE. PERHAPS
MR. BILANE WAS REFERRING TO THE OPAL AS THE OTHER ONE. IT WAS NOT
MADE IN CLEAR. HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE MR. MARBLE'S AT THE SANDWICH
GLASS MUSEUM ON CAPE COD, MA. IF HIS IS OPAL OPAQUE THEN THERE MAY
BE ONLY TWO. HIS FROM CARAPETA AND THE OTHER AT SGM Dolores
Bowler, Ayer, MA |
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The
Marble plate should be in the Sandwich Glass Museum ,although Barlow
And Kaiser did not list it or picture it in their book . Green valley
auction sold Mr. King's cup plate collection in 2003 lot number
45 . Mr. king purchased this plate 10/92 from Skinner's .Mr. Carapata's
collection sold in 2002 in three or four lots. It should also be
mentioned that there may be some of these plates misnumbered.I hope
this helps . Charlie Tucker |
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Q
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How
do you tell the difference between Opal and Opalescent? Is there
a good reference book that will show glass colors?
anonymous |
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A
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Opal
and opalescent are the exact same thing. Some just don't like to
type out the whole word. Including me! Now there are varying degrees
of opalesence. Opal opaque looks like solid milk glass. But it's
hard to describe the difference between opaque opal. and milk glass
in print. Let's say milk glass is more dense and shows very little
or no 'fire'. Opal opaque will show flashes of fire all over, especially
in the thinner spots. On the other end of the scale are pieces with
just a hint of opalesence. Then there's everything in between. So
opalecent can mean anything from solid to slight milkiness. I hope
this helped Larry Oman, Richfield, MN |
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Q
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I have a blue LR517 and a blue LR520A.
While examing them closely, I noticed that there was a flaw in the
cavetto of both, and that they were identical mold defects. Therefore,
they have the same cavetto mold and only differ due to the cap ring.
It seems that the LR517 and LR520 series are actually a common series,
and should be consolidated under one LR number. Any thoughts on
that? See images. 517B-back
520A-back (Best
viewed at small scale)
Jeff LeBlanc, Aptos, CA |
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A
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Thank
you for your observations Jeff. I am currently working on the numbers
for new discoveries since 1948. We are going to list them all on
this website after the New Year. I expect that there will be a lot
of controversy about making changes and updating numbers to the
21st Century. I think that altering the Lee/Rose numbers would meet
with considerable opposition, should they be changed...with that
said....I think that this is the Forum to talk about things like
that. It has been 57 years since they were put to print and nobody
has truly discussed them in length. Perhaps what you should propose
is the actual numbers that you suggest altering. You might be surprised
that other serious collectors support you.Dave
McDonnell, Needham, MA |
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Q
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I
bought an emerald green LR459E and it's diameter ranges from 3-3/8"
(LR459D) to 3-7/16" (LR459E). It averages closer to 3-3/8".
Regardless of the diameter, the fact that it seems to match both
plate diameters leads me to believe that the LR459D and LR459E are
the same plate in this case. That said, would the rarity of each,
assuming them to be Very Rare, be adversely affected?
Jeff LeBlanc, Aptos, CA |
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This
is a perfect example of what I was discussing above. There are many
examples similar to this where we may in fact have one cup plate
rather than two. To answer your question, No it should not affect
the Rarity or Value, because both examples are VR and both do not
show up frequently enough. I recently changed my measuring techniques
from the use of a small metal ruler to a digital caliper. When using
a caliper you get many different measurements for the same cup plates.
We need to remember that these cup plates were hand made, subjected
to dirty molds and human error. I think that 1/16" variant
is acceptable without changing the plate number. Dave
McDonnell, Needham, MA |
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Q
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I
have a rosebud shoulder plate 267, 268 or 269. It is 3 1/2"
with 63 scallops. In the 4 shoulder positions it has a pair of large
rosebuds, a pair of small rosebuds, another pair of small rosebuds,
and finally no rosebuds. Has this combo been assigned a number?
Possibly 268BX?
Bill
Pearson , San Jose, CA |
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A
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#268BX
is a 53 scallop version of #268 per Bilane (5 roses). You have a
63 scallop plate, but an extra rose in one spot and a missing rose
in another, total of 6. I have a #268X1 opal specimen, 53 scallops,
and it has 7 roses, 3 of which are VERY faint or hardly there at
all (very bad impression or mold). The last spot is clearly stippled
and has no rose. A magnifying lens helps to see them though. It
may be possible that the true #268 has 7 roses, and that some are
so faint they were overlooked by Lee and Rose, and Bilane. You might
look a bit closer and see if there is a 7th faint impression or
more like a hint of what could be a rose. If you find it, maybe
you have a #268BX1. Jeff LeBlanc, Aptos, CA |
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Q
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I have a LR418 that measures 3" diameter instead of 3 1/8".
It has no flint ring. Can someone please tell me if this is common
or have I found a reproduction? James
Willis, ME |
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A
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#Per
Bilane, #418 has no resonance, so it is non-flint or really bad
glass. AGCP mentions that some specimens have a slightly different
top shape, so maybe the diameter is affected. Probably the real
deal and not a reproduction. Jeff LeBlanc, Aptos,
CA |
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Q
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I know about the book American Glass Cup Plates, but are there any
other good reference books on Early Glass Cup Plates? Being a new
collector, I am very interested in reading everything that I can
S.
Jacobsen, Montreal, Canada |
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A
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Yes,
there are many interesting books and articles written on Glass Cup
Plates. Most are out of print, but can still be purchased at used
book stores. I recommend "American Glass" by George S.
& Helen McKearin. "The American Antiques Collector"
published by Sam Laidacker as a publication printed 6 times per
year in the 1930's-1950's ( There
is a volume For Sale on this site ) Hopefully other members
will make other suggestions here in the Forum. Dave
McDonnell, Needham, MA |
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Q
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I have a question concerning the LR192 shown here Click
for photo.
It is without a doubt 2-15/16" in diameter, but is identical
to 192 in all other ways. I measured across all four diameters and
they are all 2-15/16" or a hair less. There is a little warping
on one of the sides, but I feel as though it has no impact on the
diameter. AGCP lists 192 as being 3" in diameter.
Has anyone seen this variation in this plate before?Matt
Hardesty, NH |
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A
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I
have not come across one with that measurement. The scallops on
the 192 are usually in poor condition and perhaps have been worn
or the plate could be out of round due to a heat error? I have always
had a problem with most variants, as I do not believe that most
are a different plate. Rather, they are the result of an overused
mold. I realize that my views are not popular, but I do feel that
there are many variants out there that really are just mold errors.
I will be curious to see what others think. Dave
McDonnell, Needham, MA |
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Here
is a quote from Cup Plate Discoveries by John Bilane
"New
designs and rim patterns are identified by an "X" in
the plates number. Variations in size, shape, or otherwise by
a "V". Size differences of 1/16" more or less,
from that listed in the book, "American Glass Cup Plates"
have not been recorded." Dolores Bowler,
Ayer, MA
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Q
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I
have a clear LR 22 in good condition with a pontil mark on the bottom,
and on the top surface in the middle is what appears to be an indentation,
(definitely not a chip) about the size of a nickel but not uniformly
a circle, that I cannot necessarily identify as a pontil mark. It's
almost as if the indentation was melted into the glass.
My questions are:
1. Do you know what the mark on surface might be?
2. What value should I assign to this piece? Photo
Back Photo
Front
Thanks in advance for your replies! Matt
Hardesty, New Hampshire |
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Your
plate is listed as 022VP (Variable pontil) for $62.50 in very good
condition so in good it would have a value of about $30. the indentation
is probably in the making. they had it attached to a rod and when
it was broken off it left the pontil mark but it also could have
had some trauma from that action which would have left the indentation.
it was hot glass and could have suffered from bouncing onto the
table. Or maybe he had to use pincers to pick it up to go into the
annealing oven. Dolores Bowler, Ayer, MA |
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Hi
Matt, I agree with Dolores on the indentation. She is right in the
ball park with value also. I have always used the Bilane formula:
VG/E Full Value ($62.50), G+ (-25% $46.88), G
(-25% $35.16), G- (-25% $26.37), F (-25% $19.78) Poor
(10%) So you have $5.16 more!!! Dave
McDonnell, Needham, MA |
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Q
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Where
does everyone hear about cup plate auctions?
B.
Willard, PA |
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A
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The
Maine Antique Digest (MAD) is where I first started. Membership
in the NAGC - Founder's Chapter and The Sandwich Glass Museum, Historical
Society. Should subscribe to Skinner's, but don't. Networking is
really the best source, doing the shows, etc... Dolores
Bowler, Ayer, MA |
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Why
does Kovels show a cup plate for $156.00 and the same cup plate
sells on ebay for $78.00?
S.
Jacobsen, Montreal, Canada |
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A
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It
should be noted that these values are the Insurance replacement
values and not what you should expect to pay at auction. In some
cases the value won't change more than CPI, because the cup plate
has not been on the open market for many years. Online auctions
like ebay are not reflected in pricing because they are very unreliable.
You can do very well at ebay providing you see something than
nobody else has found, or if your knowledge is better than the other
bidders, etc... Online auctions are a great source of cupplates
for the experienced collector. It can be a disaster if you are not
certain what you are bidding for. Dave
McDonnell, Needham, MA |
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Q -
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How
do I know what to pay for a cup plate?
James
Willis, ME |
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Like
Any antique, "worth" is not only judged by investment
value, you must judge for yourself what "worth" really
is to you and your collection. If you are not sure, don't buy until
you look around for awhile at shows, shops and online
Thom Pernice, NY |
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Q
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Has
the Internet lowered cup plate values or increased them?
M.
Gieselman, MA |
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I
feel the internet has decreased some of the value of the old Cup
Plates. I am horrifed to see what some excellent plates are going
on EBay, maybe I have not looked at the right time, but plates going
for $20.00 we have paid more for over the years.
F. Melcher, Bingham, ME |
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A
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The Internet has been a double edged sword. Prior to the Internet
most collectors bought their plates from mail order cup plate sales
and Auctions. Collectors never passed an antique shop without stopping.
When the Internet started, ebay became the best way to locate cup
plates that otherwise could not be found. Many people who had them
in the china cabinet from deceased family members started to list
them. Pairpoint collectors were in full swing at the time and there
really was quite an awareness about cupplates that had not existed
before. It also brought more EAPG Cup Plate collectors ro our ranks.
At first it was a wonderful way for collectors to find plates at
reasonable prices. However as prices started to increase, more dealers
started to hunt and offer these gems. Glass Auctions were starting
to carry major collections as the main stream of collectors started
to pass away. Prices were still high. In the last 10 years, prices
have dropped drastically on the common plates and yes even the rare
and scarce plates dropped in value. The colored plates continued
to hold their own and plates that we thought were unique or extremely
rare started showing up with more frequency. It is really not that
prices dropped as much as rarity had changed due to more knowledge
about cup plates. If you have been keeping track of what you paid
for plates and what they are selling for today, I bet you will find
that things average out. There are still many surprises out there.
What a collector will pay for a plate today is not what it may bring
tomorrow, it might go up and it might go down. Supply and Demand
has always regulated value and always will. Cup plates are still
a good investment in value and who can put a price on the enjoyment
of the hunt? Dave McDonnell, Needham, MA See
James H. Rose comments on pricing |
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Q
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Aren't
variants just due to excessive use of the mold or poor duplication
of replacement molds?
anonymous |
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A
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sometimes,
but there are also variants in color and in the case of log cabins
for instance, addition or subtraction of small details
Thom Pernice, NY |
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I
don't think my response will be a popular one but here goes. John
Bilane and I used to discuss this endlessly...He believed that every
variant needed to be classified with its own number and he loved
finding those variants. I believe that 99% of variants are due to
the condition of the mold. That manufacturers remade the molds on
popular sellers, and that although they were close, there were subtle
changes ( variants ) to the original. I don't think they deserve
a place on the shelf unless your area of expertise is to collect
variants. I would prefer to put my dollars into plates that I am
missing rather than spend it on variants of plates that I already
have. Color is not something that I consider to be a variant.
Personally, I would want each and every color difference of each
and every plate...if ever my bank account was endless. Dave
McDonnell, Needham, MA |
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Q
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Are
plates with chips and broken pieces still valuable?
Susan
Jeffers , FL |
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Only
to the broken hearted
Thom Pernice, NY |
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Yes...especially
when you need to fill that empty space in your collection until
the great one comes along. The problem is that in some cases the
broken, chipped plate is the very best example that may be out there.
It depends again on the rarity of the plate. Dave
McDonnell, Needham, MA |
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Q
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Where
can I buy a Book on Cup Plates?
anonymous |
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A
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Ebay,
Amazon Thom Pernice, NY |
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Glass Shows and Old Book Stores are also a good place to look.
The original book and the Tuttle reprint are both out of print.
They sell for between $50 and $75 depending upon condition. Signed
copies and First editions are higher. If you need help contact me
through this websites email. I will find one
for you. Dave McDonnell, Needham, MA |
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Q
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What
is the difference between these and Pairpoint?
anonymous |
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A
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The
Thud! Thom Pernice, NY |
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A
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Pairpoint
glass cupplates started in the 1970"s in Sagamore, MA and are
still being made. They are a nice plate that have that wonderful
flint ring. All Pairpoint plates have a diamond with a P inside
and it has been incorporated into the design. This way it should
not be confused with the original 19th Century Plates. The ships
and the Washingtons are good examples of this. A Pairpoint collector
is a future EAPG Cup Plate Collector. It is just a shame that they
have made so darn many of them!!! Dave McDonnell,
MA |
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A
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You
should also find the letters on most cup plates along with the diamond
P. The initials on the plates stand for the engraver: A.W. stands
for Alvin White ..A.B. stands for Andrew Burbon & R.H. stands
for Richard Hazen. I currently have several cup plates with both.
The current Pairpoint glass factory has been producing glass in
Sagamore on Cape Cod since 1970. Pairpoint began pressing cup plates
in 1974 with new and original designs. You can find more than 100
different cup plates in circulation, and some are limited editions
and have become collectible. See the Pairpoint site, which is a
very nice site, at http://www.pairpoint.com/index_home.html.
The following is one of the cup plate pages from the company http://www.pairpoint.com/cupplates/cupplates71402.html
. The following is a paperback book on Pairpoint cup plates "The
Pairpoint Cup Plate Guide" 2005.. by Barbara R.Wordell. Brady
Fitts |
